Minutes for the APPG for Textiles and Fashion Event on IP, Fashion and the Global Market Place
BRITISH FASHION IN THE GLOBAL MARKETPLACE
13TH NOVEMBER COMMITTEE ROOM 16
PALACE OF WESTMINSTER
DR LISA CAMERON MP & PETE WISHART MP
MODERATORS: DR LISA CAMERON MP (LC) AND PETE WISHART MP (PW)
Dids MacDonald - CEO Anti-Copying in Design
Ahlya Fateh - Managing Director AMANDA WAKELEY
John Greager - Commercial Litigator and IP Lawyer
Samuel Young - Creative Industries Federation
Lisa Cameron delays proceedings because of delays getting in.
• Welcomes everyone at 18:11 combined group for APPG and IP raising issues and continuing
conversations with experts
• Introduces panel with experts in audience. Further delays of people coming in.
DIDS MACDONALD (DMcD)
• Passionate about design protection.
• 96% of Creatives voted Remain £85.2 billion Design contributes to the economy this creates
1.5million jobs many are migrant and require secure IP framework
• Fashion Design is at the forefront of negotiation
• Online infringement SEO is easy to access important that there is duty of care and redress when
it goes wrong
• IP must be savvy, practical and have compliant strategy - Designers need to value and protect
their talent when there is blatant infringement.
• It is no longer possible to claim EU design protection post Brexit.
• There is a big gap Register design and trademark that is not getting across to government
• We need legal certainty and practical certainty so that the rights of fashion remain
LC - This issue is so important it needs a lot of work in short time
DMcD Recommends we write to our MP
Frances Card (FC) Is there a set of rules in place?
DMcD - Gov have not given clarity or certainty so no, there are no rules
Floor - This means designs at LFW can then be ripped off across EU because they are
not protected where they are at the moment.
Lisa introduces Ahyla who arrived guided by Hannah
Lisa recaps to Ahyla (AF)
AF Talks of problem with plagiarism and how a brand can be subject to
“name of brand-esque” (Amanda Wakeleyesque). We must protect design
• Copying is lazy if it’s not from Chanel it is not Chanel
• IP and fashion linked to photography which up till now has been strictly controlled.
• IP provides a legal framework to protect brand
• We work 18 12 months in advance. We can have an exclusive customised fabric. This can
then be sold to mass market without customisation and it is allowed.
• It gets blown up by mass market and credited because they believed it’s their design
• We have had exclusive trims but they then run with a different designer with little or no
• Mills must be controlled
• Product needs trademark to protect it
• Fear that this will add cost where competition is already tough
• Trade mark will have big impact especially on small businesses
• Can be achieved but clock ticking
• Not good for London Fashion week show - because designs will be showing in EU
• Moving ahead we need to be as agile and proactive as possible
• We must identify and enforce our rights IP and our goodwill
• Monetarise brand through licensing
LC - Looking at impact and working with lawyers so pleased we are dealing with this as it
is so important and needs to be raised across parties.
LC hands over to Pete Wishart (PW)
Harold Tillman - Advises wearing a bow tie to get in quick to Fast Track
• I come from era of knocking off and everything was sold in UK. See it in Paris and then
on Tuesday it would be knocked off and sold in C&A the next week
• We can’t eradicate this completely Royalty generate beautiful Knocks off
• The Brands value is how to protect it outside of EU when it has been protected for
• Industry must be protected can Government protect independents?
Jack Karet Head of Designer Fashion at DCMS
• There is a Budget Fund to protect designers rights but it is not advertised. We are
working to get to designers to sign up to it.
PW introduces John Greager (JG)
• Thanks Tamara this is brilliant!
• 15yrs ago John set up the Fashion Law Group had a lot of clients, it’s a fascinating industry. We don’t get to choose our clients.
• We had racks with originals and fakes and played spot the fake.
• Designers would argue ‘I was inspired’ and for the brand this is the point.
• This is a huge industry.
• Highly polluting fast fashion has destroyed the cycle of fashion where there used to be 4
collections a year. Big retailers are under pressure to make sales and so are changing
their rails every 6 weeks.
• For IP it is the Brand, then the Design that then leads to sales
• Learn what IP is and is not
• Ideas are not IP
• Visible idea is copyright
• Physical thing is Design and has design rights
• It is not cohesive so lots of gaps that need to be plugged
• Register Design rights on the first showing of any collection
• We must think how we go forward from the Customs Union 4th June 2018 letter of from
• There is possible 3rd withdrawal agreement
Customs code will no longer apply - frightening
• Product with more than one pieces is subject to IP rights
• If no deal with Customs officials IP infringement will happen. It will stop components
moving back and forth between UK and EU which means it will have big impact on
fashion industry cars etc.
Harold Tillman CBE:
• Mini goes out of UK 4 times before it is complete.
• A deal might get through but no solution. Everything stays the same during transition.
• This is a just sticking plaster on Design and Copy rights and not looked at Trademarks
to protect these brands
• It has not been thought through
• Apple controversially protects its brand country by country but this can be misused. It is
the strongest mechanism to protect brand.
JG recommends protecting brand country by country
Pete comments on John’s advice that this is just a smattering of how much there is to
cover and impressed how much we have to do.
Tech IP Copy right governs desire to keep with EU
Single market has massive impact on Creative Industries by virtue of ESM supports
Creative industries with many useful products for the UK
PW Introduces Samuel Young
• There are wider issues on IP and Brexit - We need to protect Creatives
• We represent all with one voice £92billion with oil gas auto combined £1.6m
• £40m in goods and services
• We need to promote Creative Industries
• Brexit is v challenging and how important funding, trade and IP are
• Concern for the future to protect and strengthen IP framework DSM and online market
• Content needs to be under one license
• Continuing EU IP how it works and design rights
• If no agreement- reputation of UK at risk. Uncertainty of no deal and what that means
for design rights especially for UK after Brexit
• Quotes: In 2016 UK F&T generated £29bn employing 800,000. (More stats quoted)
• Need to look at bigger picture both at home and in EU and the need for education
• Look at how we can use this dialogue with other trades outside EU as we already have
great systems in place here to create an environment to grow and secure IP
PW - Thanks Samuel
• There are lots of strong issues that we need to keep as concise as possible
• Opens questions to the floor
Tamara Cincik CEO FashionRoundtable:
• IP is very complicated to understand and was put well by Ahlya Fateh from Amanda
• We have not grasped is that our reputation is IP
Will we be weaker if we get reciprocal trade with EU?
JG responds - Our legal system is different to EU. We have precedents and common law
EU has civil law.
i.e. Is orange juice a food? If it is food it is protected by Food act and if not its isn’t
EU orange juice is a food so protected by food act - it is in the book but there is no
precedent in UK
UK in EU for 40yrs and we are now in position where we have one foot in one out
PW: EU must go to member states to decide then?
JG: This is a lazy copy and paste solution - In UK we have Damages in EU we have
PW: We need to be at forefront to generate bigger interest
• Asks floor if any other points
Floor: Will smaller brands not get ripped off?
JG - its difficult but £50 will protect design - get good trademark lawyer but
It is expensive
DMcD - Unregistered rights protect from seed to market place. Small claims track
IP in enterprise courts
• Must communicate evidence : evidence of dates when lodged
• Be proactive to protect rights
Taylor Wessing index is for lawyers but not for Creative Industries because they are micro
PW - They should be registered?
• Monopoly right is for 5 years
• UK design and community design right is cheaper the more you apply the cheaper the
cost - 11 and over 60 Euro each
PW - How do we sign up?
Jack Karat - It is difficult but start with us
Eddy Leviten Alliance for IP - the Allliance for IP works closely with SMEs too
Harold Tillman - Can you do it on your own without lawyer?
Jack Karet - Yes you can get all information from the British Library
JG - These are Community registered designs
Floor - Once in the public you can’t get community design?
JG - No that is Patent for mechanisms and processes
Patents i.e. you put your product on instagram but once in the public then it cannot be
DMcD - You can apply within year for community design rights
Floor - Are Start ups more attractive in EU than UK?
SY - The cost is difficult - some moving is costly
Katherine Hamnett CBE- Country by country IP effectively means ‘plastic cup’ in France and
UK will have different trademarks but will cost $1 for one and 85p for other - the same
product but different price depending where you are.
This means for fashion trademark in 28 EU countries that will now go?
JG - Yes
PETE - Is anyone Brexit resilient?
Floor - Yes by default yarns from EU cost more. We do everything here in UK in our mills
so our business has grown
Floor - I work in ME, I’ve tried to report knock off brands but gets to certain level and is
too expensive to pursue any further unless it is registered in UK
DMcD - legal action is expensive - name and shame on our website - Spot the Difference
but you have to be careful e.g. Claire’s Accessories - social media needs a lot of care.
PW - Concludes meeting is successful. We need to adapt to survive and go forward to
continue our wonderful tradition and talent. Must wear my Vivienne Westwood tie next
Thanks to Tamara once again.